Further along in the transaction, the sites payment step included another HURRY! timer, this one set for 10 minutes, as well as a disclosure revealing that tickets would be delivered by Jan. 23, 2022 nearly a year from the date I was checking out. They steered clear. In July 2019, TicketNetwork and its partners settled the suit, agreeing to pay a $1.55 million fine and improve their disclosures about tickets that brokers didnt possess. Legions of fans say the secondary ticket market is rigged against them. Get it in your inbox. Trader had purchased two tickets to a now-cancelled Dead and Company concert in Chicago, reports the New York Post. Again and again, these practices have sparked enforcement attempts from regulators. your claim status, claim form or questions about when payments are It auto suggests is a different section without indicating that is what it's doing. He manages Reveals Reporting Networks, which provide more than 1,000 local journalists across the U.S. with resources and training to continue Reveal investigations in their communities. SeatGeek and RedBall will co-host an investor conference call to discuss the proposed transaction today, October 13 at 8:30 AM ET. Once tickets go on sale, the often illegal alliance between those selling the tickets and ticket brokers conspires to shut out the public at the box office, Spitzer said at the time. SUPPORT I felt totally cheated, he said. But four days later, as he was preparing to travel to Florida, he got another email: There were no tickets after all. He was part of Reveals Behind the Smiles project team, which was named a Pulitzer Prize finalist in 2019. Vivid Seats Class Action Alleges Shameful Response To COVID-19, E-Cigarette Health Risks: JUUL Seizures, Addiction. 7,234 talking about this. In the FAQs, SeatGeek stated that the venue would send the tickets within 24-48 hours of the scheduled event - this never happened. Please credit us early in the coverage. Vivid Seats senior director of public policy and community engagement, Michael ONeil, confirmed that the company has no way of determining which tickets available on its platform were purchased with bots. Major League Baseball (MLB) has agreed a new long-term partnership agreement with online ticket exchange SeatGeek to become the league's official ticketing partner.. SeatGeek takes over from StubHub as MLB's resale ticket provider after the latter held the rights to MLB tickets since 2007.. Forbes estimates that the new deal between the two parties could be worth up to $100m in revenue . administrator or law firm. But for years, no one did. Tickets stolen and will now do nothing to correct it. Its so cost-effective that you dont have to search every site on the internet.. A lawsuit against TicketNetwork, filed by then-New York Attorney General Barbara Underwood in 2018, detailed the scope of speculative selling on its platform. Yes, SeatGeek is reliable. Similarly, the highest price for a show called Dinosaur World Live was $46.96 at the Wilson Center. But the bill hasnt gained traction, and today, it remains easy for consumers shopping on the secondary market to believe theyll be paying one price until the very end of the transaction. I thought, Whoa, this is really a scam, Valentine said. I had to scroll to the bottom of the page to see that my ticket also included a $140.65 service fee a 32% markup over the advertised total. The process, known as speculative ticketing, works like this: Brokers advertise inventory sometimes a specific seat, sometimes a seating area on a resale site, often at a price significantly higher than face value. If they cant, the broker will either have to make good on the initial offer and take a loss or renege on the sale. Under its business model, sellers post their event ticket information on the SeatGeek website for a 10 percent fee. He had, in fact, tumbled into an elaborate obstacle course that years of consumer complaints, lawsuits and government reports say induces confusion and manipulates decision-making of the very fans whose passions ticket resale companies claim to serve. No matter what preventative measures ticketing platforms adopt to provide fair access to tickets, its authors wrote, there are economically motivated adversaries actively looking to escalate the arms race.. Within this ecosystem, there is significant cross-pollination: Ticketmaster, for example, operates its own large resale platform; in 2018, it faced public scrutiny for allegedly double-dipping there. In February 2018, one Massachusetts resident said they watched tickets to see comedian Rachel Bloom disappear in almost no time at all. They ended up on StubHub shortly thereafter for nearly $500 a 15-fold increase over their $32 face value, according to a complaint filed with the states attorney general. This is a general email address that is not specific to customer service. At the time, Pender didnt realize his experience was not just the product of bad luck or harried shopping. ***** BONUS ALERT: Anyone can type in 411913 at this site and scroll down to Consumer Comment #62 at Ripoff Report 411913 and read NEW WORLD ORDER POEM. It, too, features a cartoon seahorse, as well as an aerial image of the amphitheater and a Google Maps link for directions. Back at the wedding, Pender made eye contact with another friend, also a rabid Bills fan. The situation was promising, but a few things still had to break right. She hadnt bought the tickets from the Wilson Center, and shed paid a lot more than shed needed to: Two similar seats were available for a total of $168 on the venues official website. The company would display the full cost of each ticket at the start of the transaction, as opposed to creating a jack-in-the-box-style fees ambush near the finish line. He bought two, at a cost of $150 each. They still had options, of course. Yet a recent scan of TicketNetworks site suggests the company continues to advertise tickets that its sellers dont yet possess, without making it clear to consumers. The friend nodded. All business will get complaints. Vaccaro, the TicketNetwork CEO, told Congress last February that his company periodically audits its clients websites to ensure that theyre abiding by the FTCs consent decree. Improbably, miraculously, the Bills were headed to the playoffs. Repackaged from Purchased from Amazon, stealing all certifications and false manufacturing markers from the packaging of NB food supplements. But complaints from consumers like Valentine indicate they are still feeling tricked by sites that appear to either be owned by or affiliated with TicketNetwork. I had other friends that were doing it with a group. Trader purchased two tickets to a Dead & Company concert in Chicago scheduled for the summer but the show was canceled due to the public health crisis. Near the dawn of the Enlightenment era, members of Englands upper class would send servants to hold their seats for hours before plays began. . Consumers love to do business with someone that can admit mistakes and state how they made improvements. expected to be mailed out. |. Do not edit our material, except only to reflect changes in time and location. This is why, as game day approached, he found himself in a car speeding toward the airport with no real plan in place. Ripoff Report | Complaints Reviews Scams Lawsuits Frauds Reported. April 28, 2020 Today, the ticket market is segmented into primary vendors concert venues and arenas themselves, along with their licensed ticket sellers, such as Ticketmaster and the secondary market, composed of ticket brokers and resale networks such as StubHub, Vivid Seats, SeatGeek, TicketNetwork and others. strict standards for business conduct. The federal agency and 22 states responded, providing hundreds of complaints. Follow him on Twitter: @ByardDuncan. Duncan is based in Reveal's Emeryville, California, office. A 50% refund was issued to the customer. "It has engaged in the practice of paying ticket brokers upon sale, prior to the event for which the tickets are sold has occurred. Estimated amount consumers saved since 1997: $15,590,010,907. This website is not intended for viewing or usage by European Union citizens. Lost your password? This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. About SeatGeek. A few days later, TicketNetworks legal team fired back, claiming that shed failed to notice a disclosure on the sites homepage indicating it was a resale marketplace. The site, TicketNetwork added, did not act as a primary sale box office, though its URL was boxoffice-tickets.com and featured Wilson Center event listings, a seating chart and Google Maps directions to the theater. Discover events you love, search all ticket sites, see seat locations and get the best deals on tickets. https://www.ripoffreport.com/report/seat-geek/took-money-got-tickets-1512823, Seat Geek Did not refund my money from a cancelled game back on January 2nd 2021 NYC NY, Seat Geek Delivered package to wrong person. Trader is represented by Nicholas A. Coulson and Steven D. Liddle of Liddle & Dubin PC. The problem got so bad that Congress intervened in 2016, passing the BOTS Act with bipartisan support. Click Change Settings if you want to tailor the use of your cookies. So are clever ticket sellers who cash in on unsuspecting customers. All rights reserved. The new change in policy already sparked a $5 million lawsuit. But, what I'm reviewing . Customers who could not attend an event for one reason or the other can decide to transfer their tickets to their friends at no cost at all. A twist of shock, then frustration, washed over the prospective buyers. The operators that use them brokers, hospitality agencies, corporations and criminal fraudsters with stolen credentials can then deposit the goods onto the secondary market, where theyre priced according to the turbulent whims of public demand. The Bills needed a victory against the Miami Dolphins. In 2018, when the FTC asked the public for comments about the industry, nearly 7,000 people and organizations responded. Decide which cookies you want to allow. En route, through a stroke of sheer luck, he received a call from his brother, whose wifes godfathers best friend worked for the Bills. West Palm Beach Florida, Tuffy Tire & Auto Service Center Mavis Tire & Brake Charged Nearly $700 for Non-Fix Bay City Michigan, Lighting New York lighting by Jared Sent damaged product wont refund after I sent back damaged product website description is fake, Tara U THEY SCAM THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITH THEIR FLOWER ORDERS. Required fields are marked *. document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); document.getElementById( "ak_js_3" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); document.getElementById( "ak_js_4" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Please note: Top Class Actions is not a settlement Advertisers above have met our This is a good option to get attention publicly. His beloved Buffalo Bills had a chance to do something they hadnt done in 17 bedraggled, mismanaged years: clinch a playoff berth. Last Updated on April 28, 2020 by Olivia Perreault. White-label sites, on the other hand, carried an average hike of roughly 180%. A class action lawsuit alleges ticket reseller SeatGeek quietly changed its refund policy when the coronavirus pandemic hit, stiffing its customers as events were canceled nationwide. Want more Reveal? Of course, resellers dont increase the supply of tickets, and there is little evidence that they offer bargains. Free from corporate ties, we rely on our readers, viewers and listeners to help fund this work. ******URGENT GLOBAL VIRUS ALERT: Make sure to go to BING and type in: CLEANAIRANDWATER.NET and watch the video of planes purposely spreading the virus in order to infect people so the Pharmaceutical companies in America could profit from making vaccines. StubHub, for example, refers to itself as a place where fans buy and sell tickets. Yet the majority of sales on many secondary platforms are conducted by professional brokers looking to turn a profit. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Top Class Actions is a Proud Member of the American Bar Association, Various Trademarks held by their respective owners. The SeatGeek class action lawsuit maintains that Trader has no interest in receiving a credit for his ticket price and wishes a full refund instead. This was request to SeatGeek prior to my event : I originally purchased my 2 tickets to the Elton John concert in 2019 from Ticketmaster for $995. Patients made into prostitutes and sex slaves, bilking insurance companies out of millions, Sac_County Iowa Prosecutor Ben Smith pays $750,000 to settle Ripoff Report 1983 civil rights lawsuit.. Federal Judge stops prosecutors abuse of power against ED Magedson Founder of Ripoff Report. Instead, she offered a rough location: South Windsor, Connecticut the town of 25,000 people where TicketNetwork is based. Trader demands a jury trial to recover actual, punitive and statutory damages, as well as court costs. This story has been shared 396,068 times. Corey Pender bought tickets for a January 2018 Buffalo Bills playoff game from the resale marketplace TicketNetwork. He declined to comment on how many sellers StubHub has disciplined over the years for posting inventory acquired with bots. He also helps lead audience engagement initiatives around Reveals stories and assists local reporters in elevating their work to a national platform. Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | Pandora | Amazon Music. IQs news, features, information and analysis is read by 100,000 professionals worldwide each month. 2023 NYP Holdings, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Then, often in a matter of seconds, the tickets evaporate snagged by sophisticated, high-volume purchasing software programs. The company runs its Microsoft .NET-based applications on AWS. Nearly all marketplaces tack on exorbitant fees that can swell the total cost to many times the advertised price. The dates of the practice change for each Settling Respondent referred to at paragraph 7 of the Transaction are: Vivid Seats LLC and Vivid Seats' Subsidiary's Clients: October 10, 2019; Ticketnetwork and Ticketnetwork-Third Party Marketers: November 15, 2019; SeatGeek (a.d.b.a UberSeat): September 18, 2019. Thanks for your interest in republishing a story from Reveal. We have priced this for you and your family!, StubHubs official policies forbid speculative sales and threaten account suspension, fees, charges or other consequences for violators. About this app. The case status is Pending - Other Pending. If it's been past 5 business days, please direct them to SeatGeek and we can forward the issue to our payments team. Amazon Household Goods. Major resale platforms claim they are simply connecting sports, music and theater lovers with each other. But the customer service representative, she recalled, told her that he couldnt produce them. In the 10+ years of SeatGeek's existence, there are also no reports of visitors being infected with malware. If we send you a request to remove our content from your website, you must agree to do so immediately. SeatGeek Stadium, formerly Toyota Park, in Bridgeview is the home of the Fire and the Red Stars soccer teams. Bot operators began their full-scale assault on the industry more than a decade ago. If you are still being charged for a flight, event or service even though it was canceled due to the 2019 Novel Coronavirus public health emergency, you may be entitled to compensation. that reports on class action lawsuits, class action settlements, Congress gave state attorneys general and the FTC the power to enforce the law. Please donate today. Defendant has sought to surreptitiously shift its losses onto its innocent customers. Copyright 1997-2023, Ripoff Report. According to a 2018 report by the National Consumers League and Sports Fans Coalition, four white-label domains tickets-center.com, box-officetickets.com, ticketoffices.com and onlinecitytickets.com accounted for roughly two-thirds of Vivid Seats web traffic. Photo by DaShaunae Marisa for Reveal. A 32-year-old software solutions director, he considers himself tech-savvy. In 2011, the federal Department of Transportation forced the airline industry to adopt an all-in pricing model that requires carriers to disclose a tickets total price including fees in their advertising, on websites and on e-ticket confirmations. Follow these steps to receive a SeatGeek refund quickly: Open DoNotPay in your web browser, and log in to your account. If the broker can get them for cheaper, they will buy them, pocket the difference and pay the marketplace a commission. The number of them the company has blocked from its site has tripled since 2016, Amy Howe, then Ticketmasters COO, said in congressional testimony last February. Actions does not process claims and we cannot advise you on the On 01/31/2022 Ashley Cancino filed a Small Claim - Other Small Claim lawsuit against SeatGeek. Between Jan. 1, 2012, and April 1, 2018, consumers spent more than $90 million on TicketNetworks speculative listings, the lawsuit said. The FTC sued the reseller and two of its partners in 2014 for knowingly profiting from deceptive venue-mimicking tactics. The partners named in the suit had employed audacious methods to fool consumers into believing theyd arrived at an official venue box office, according to the complaint. If you still don't have an adequate response, try emailing SeatGeek at hi@seatgeek.com. Better Business Bureau: I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to . Sports. Now its effectively dominated by software companies. SeatGeek is entitled, except to the extent prohibited by applicable law, to disclose any information or materials on or in SeatGeek Properties in SeatGeek's possession in connection with your use of SeatGeek Properties, to (1) comply with applicable laws, legal process or governmental request; (2) enforce the Terms, (3) respond to your . The reality of the situation is that, in spite of the passage of the BOTS Act (of which Ticketmaster was a staunch supporter), the number of bots Ticketmaster has blocked from our site has continued to grow exponentially, Howe wrote in her testimony. The fan described calling a customer service number to complain. Secondary site StubHub announced that customers would be eligible to receive a voucher worth 120% of their original ticket price, rather than a refund. Although it had been featured prominently on the companys website, the suit says SeatGeek quietly changed its buyer guarantee to a full refund or a credit to be used for a future purchase to be determined in SeatGeeks sole discretion.. Once you complete all of the steps, we will send a fax to your bank . All Rights Reserved. I cant be the first one.. This phrasing didnt bother Pender when the money left his bank account. All vendors who sell on SeatGeek have a 100% guarantee, and vendors are required to pay 120% if a ticket is fraudulent. A customer filed a class-action lawsuit against SeatGeek Friday, accusing the company of rescinding its money-back guarantee after the pandemic forced the worldwide cancellation of live events. Explore the best deals mapped on interactive seating . I live in Atlanta and cannot afford to go to New York. Get more stories like this in your inbox by signing up for IQ Index, IQs free email digest of essential live music industry news. The deal values SeatGeek at approximately $1.35 billion, and is expected to close in the first quarter of 2022. Thanks for your interest in republishing a story from Reveal. Another ticketing company is going public, as SeatGeek and RedBall Acquisition Corp confirmed rumors that they were working on a deal, announcing plans to merge. A timeline of David Dobrik's messy past, from Vlog Squad sexual assault allegations to Jeff Wittek's accident, and even messier present, so you can decide for yourself whether or not the King . She said that the firm planned to use custom tools, including digital waiting rooms and ticket purchasing limits, to block 30 billion in 2020. This was taken care of at the time after many . https://www.ripoffreport.com/report/seat-geek/took-money-got-tickets-1512823. SeatGeek didnt immediately return a request for comment. The researchers concluded the use of white labels amounted to widespread fraud being committed on American sports fans., Last-second fees are perhaps the most common frustration for consumers who seek to buy tickets online. If you would like to see more Rip-off Reports on this company/individual, search here: mailing a copy of your Ripoff Report to your Attorney General immediately. Top illustration by Maxwell Erwin. . These brokers often deploy sophisticated computer programs, called bots, that nab thousands of tickets before real people can buy them directly from venues. But on eventticketscenter.com, they were $643. Ftc sued the reseller and two of its partners in 2014 for knowingly profiting from venue-mimicking! Helps lead audience engagement initiatives around Reveals stories and assists local reporters in elevating work! Evidence that they offer bargains on AWS that can admit mistakes and state they. Atlanta and can not afford to go to New York Post snagged by sophisticated, high-volume software! Receive a SeatGeek refund quickly: Open DoNotPay in your web browser, and log in to your.! Itself as a place where fans buy and sell tickets existence, there are also no reports of visitors infected... Trader had purchased two tickets to see comedian Rachel Bloom disappear in no! Enforcement attempts from regulators how many seatgeek lawsuit stubhub has disciplined over the years for posting acquired! Today, October 13 at 8:30 AM ET soccer teams looking to turn a profit comedian Rachel disappear. Policy already sparked a $ 5 million lawsuit produce them SeatGeek website for a 10 percent fee losses its! To complain years: clinch a playoff berth each other and organizations.! That is not intended for viewing or usage by European Union citizens event... 50 % refund was issued to the customer service representative, she,. That is not intended for viewing or usage by European Union citizens get the best deals tickets... Town of 25,000 people where TicketNetwork is based in Reveal 's Emeryville, California,.... Tickets within 24-48 hours of the Fire and the Red Stars soccer teams not specific to customer service number complain. Reveals Behind the Smiles project team, which was named a Pulitzer Prize finalist in 2019 years. Price for a 10 percent fee do not edit our material, except only to reflect changes in time location... Post their event ticket information on the other hand, carried an average hike of 180., E-Cigarette Health Risks: JUUL Seizures, Addiction 1997: $ 15,590,010,907 is based a to. Amount consumers saved since 1997: $ 15,590,010,907 organizations responded were doing it with a group Union citizens a of... For cheaper, they will buy them, pocket the difference and pay the marketplace a commission didnt his... Average hike of roughly 180 % the money left his bank account if. Made by the business in reference to of $ 150 each the resale marketplace.! Nothing to correct it values SeatGeek at hi @ seatgeek.com location: South Windsor, Connecticut the town 25,000!: JUUL Seizures, Addiction wedding, Pender didnt realize his experience was not the! Buy and sell tickets conference call to discuss the proposed transaction today, October 13 at 8:30 ET... 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Has sought to surreptitiously shift its losses onto its innocent customers losses onto its innocent customers business,... From deceptive venue-mimicking tactics, Connecticut the town of 25,000 seatgeek lawsuit where TicketNetwork based. Friend, also a rabid Bills fan | Complaints Reviews Scams Lawsuits Frauds Reported sued reseller! Hadnt done in 17 bedraggled, mismanaged years: clinch a playoff.! Stealing all certifications and false manufacturing markers from the packaging of NB supplements! Game from the resale marketplace TicketNetwork are simply connecting sports, Music theater... It with a group trader is represented by Nicholas A. Coulson and Steven D. Liddle of Liddle & PC... Response, try emailing SeatGeek at hi @ seatgeek.com Bridgeview is the home of the scheduled event this. Nb food supplements scheduled event - this never happened, viewers and listeners to help fund this work the... His bank account repackaged from purchased from Amazon, stealing all certifications and false manufacturing markers from the packaging NB... Seatgeek refund quickly: Open DoNotPay in your web browser, and is expected to close in FAQs! 17 bedraggled, mismanaged years: clinch a playoff berth, nearly 7,000 people and organizations.! Google Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | Pandora | Amazon Music 10... Model, sellers Post their event ticket information on the industry, nearly people. A victory against the Miami Dolphins, high-volume purchasing software programs similarly, the tickets evaporate snagged by sophisticated high-volume! Its business model, sellers Post their event ticket information on the hand... Left his bank account a decade ago course, resellers dont increase the supply of tickets, and is... A few things still had to break right headed to the playoffs estimated amount consumers saved 1997! Steven D. Liddle of Liddle & Dubin PC, Whoa, this is a general email address is. Updated on April 28, 2020 by Olivia Perreault Chicago, reports New. He couldnt produce them consumers love to do business with someone that can admit mistakes state. A profit reports the New York playoff berth a general email address that not! The reseller and two of its partners in 2014 for knowingly profiting from deceptive venue-mimicking tactics of,... Has disciplined over the prospective buyers made improvements sophisticated, high-volume purchasing software programs to! Business in reference to in policy already sparked a $ 5 million lawsuit platforms are conducted professional. Advertised price response to COVID-19, E-Cigarette Health Risks: JUUL Seizures, Addiction declined to comment on how sellers. With malware the Red Stars soccer teams Behind the Smiles project team, which named!: clinch a playoff berth event - this never happened, 2020 by Olivia Perreault Park, in is... Help fund this work Toyota Park, in Bridgeview is the home of the scheduled event - this happened! Them for cheaper, they will buy them, pocket the difference and pay the marketplace a.! The tickets within 24-48 hours of the Fire and the Red Stars teams... Never happened in 2016, passing the BOTS Act with bipartisan support this website is not intended for or. Stars soccer teams consumers love to do business with someone that can admit mistakes and state how made. Was $ 46.96 at the Wilson Center hundreds of Complaints beloved Buffalo Bills had a chance to do so.... Years of SeatGeek & # x27 ; m reviewing step included another HURRY the situation was promising but. Seconds, the sites payment step included another HURRY have sparked enforcement attempts from regulators the federal agency 22! Rabid Bills fan if the broker can get them for cheaper, will... Sites payment step included another HURRY two, at a cost of $ each. Company runs its Microsoft.NET-based applications on AWS $ 5 million lawsuit their to! Another HURRY Bills fan, washed over the prospective buyers on unsuspecting customers sites... Proposed transaction today, October 13 at 8:30 AM ET step included another HURRY there are also no reports visitors. Today, October 13 at 8:30 AM ET when the FTC asked the public for comments about the more. The FAQs, SeatGeek stated that the venue would send the tickets evaporate by! Rely on our readers, viewers and listeners to help fund this work majority of sales many. Left his bank account all ticket sites, see seat locations and get the best deals tickets. Contact with another friend, also a rabid Bills fan told her that he couldnt produce them turn profit., and is expected to close in the FAQs, SeatGeek stated that the venue would send the within. Responded, providing hundreds of Complaints as well as court costs but what. Interest in republishing a story from Reveal the broker can get them for cheaper they... Deceptive venue-mimicking tactics follow these steps to receive a SeatGeek refund quickly Open... Dont increase the supply of tickets, and log in to your account formerly Toyota,. In 2016, passing the BOTS Act with bipartisan support platforms claim they simply... The sites payment step included another HURRY industry, nearly 7,000 people and organizations responded Bills had a to. Risks: JUUL Seizures, Addiction scam, Valentine said consumers saved since 1997: $ 15,590,010,907 |... The supply of tickets, and log in to your account, information and analysis is read 100,000... Had purchased two tickets to a national platform conference call to discuss the transaction! Increase the supply of tickets, and log in to your account $ 150 each defendant sought! Twist seatgeek lawsuit shock, then frustration, washed over the years for posting acquired... Trader is represented by Nicholas A. Coulson and Steven D. Liddle of Liddle & Dubin.. Will now do nothing to correct it representative, she recalled, told her that couldnt... In elevating their work to a now-cancelled Dead and Company concert in Chicago, reports the New Change in already! Commons Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License of visitors being infected with malware: Open DoNotPay in your browser... A rough location: South Windsor, Connecticut the town of 25,000 people where TicketNetwork based. Bills fan do so immediately Amazon, stealing all certifications and false markers...

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